Comments on: The Darkest September http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/ A Jordanian Blog Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:56:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Learning how to trust and question sources « An Najah Research Methods Class http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-129955 Learning how to trust and question sources « An Najah Research Methods Class Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:10:31 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-129955 [...] The Black Iris of Jordan [...] [...] The Black Iris of Jordan [...]

]]> By: OmAr http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9727 OmAr Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:42:56 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9727 It's hard to collect authentic resources or to create unbiased text to be tought in schools, and harder to predict the results of such a move. For the times being, I for one strictly believe that it's not a good idea to teach this black history in our schools, we're relativly living in better conditions compared to that time- as you have mentioned. I say, before we jump to such a move, close wihdat and faisali clubs, allow the youth to induldge in political parties inside universities rather than deliberately fueling up racial problems every now and then, and maybe create some balance inside official departments and minsitries. I guess then, we maight be ready to handle a history such as Black September. Frankly, I never read nor heard any information about Black sep that I could say it's neutral; It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to have a Palestinian or a Jordanian who have lived the actual events to be classified as an authentic resource, and by referring to a third party, you'll never get the whole story, becuase practically, as you said, reporters were isolated inside hotels! You can add to this that both the Jordanian regime and the Palestinian guerillas had committed their share of inhuman crimes, keeping in mind that nothing has changed- that is, the same regime is ruling Jordan- it seems a bit crazy to ask the Ministry of Jordan to conceive a neutral text accusing itself of crimes! I think we're better off without it, in my personal opinion, it should not be mentioned nor tought anywhere at any level inside Jordan. The current situation is the best formula to handle such a history. It’s hard to collect authentic resources or to create unbiased text to be tought in schools, and harder to predict the results of such a move. For the times being, I for one strictly believe that it’s not a good idea to teach this black history in our schools, we’re relativly living in better conditions compared to that time- as you have mentioned.

I say, before we jump to such a move, close wihdat and faisali clubs, allow the youth to induldge in political parties inside universities rather than deliberately fueling up racial problems every now and then, and maybe create some balance inside official departments and minsitries. I guess then, we maight be ready to handle a history such as Black September.

Frankly, I never read nor heard any information about Black sep that I could say it’s neutral; It’s extremely hard, if not impossible, to have a Palestinian or a Jordanian who have lived the actual events to be classified as an authentic resource, and by referring to a third party, you’ll never get the whole story, becuase practically, as you said, reporters were isolated inside hotels! You can add to this that both the Jordanian regime and the Palestinian guerillas had committed their share of inhuman crimes, keeping in mind that nothing has changed- that is, the same regime is ruling Jordan- it seems a bit crazy to ask the Ministry of Jordan to conceive a neutral text accusing itself of crimes!

I think we’re better off without it, in my personal opinion, it should not be mentioned nor tought anywhere at any level inside Jordan. The current situation is the best formula to handle such a history.

]]> By: Hamzeh N. http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9726 Hamzeh N. Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:26:54 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9726 <blockquote>Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began itâ??s â??genocideâ? on Palestinains 60 years ago. And thatâ??s by conservative estimates.</blockquote> Most people don't speak about a genocide happening with the Palestinians in Israel, but about ethnic cleansing and that is about the displacement of a certain ethnic group from a terretory. Israel seems to be the master of that game.

Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began itâ??s â??genocideâ? on Palestinains 60 years ago. And thatâ??s by conservative estimates.

Most people don’t speak about a genocide happening with the Palestinians in Israel, but about ethnic cleansing and that is about the displacement of a certain ethnic group from a terretory. Israel seems to be the master of that game.

]]> By: Nas http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9724 Nas Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:19:58 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9724 guys, once again, hold off on the insulting of each other please. let's maintain a bit of civility. guys, once again, hold off on the insulting of each other please. let’s maintain a bit of civility.

]]> By: Nidal http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9720 Nidal Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:36:32 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9720 Uhhh poor Graig! Feeling neglected are we, I was not abusing you! it was harsh graphic constructive criticism, you seem to want to discuss the topic of Black September with me, where I am only discussing YOU, the subject for all I care could be the price of a Kilo of Tomato. You seem to have a lot of energy to get involved in debates, but you never take time to analyse the subject at hand, shame really, free advice, take it or leave it, consider it or don't. Uhhh poor Graig! Feeling neglected are we, I was not abusing you! it was harsh graphic constructive criticism, you seem to want to discuss the topic of Black September with me, where I am only discussing YOU, the subject for all I care could be the price of a Kilo of Tomato.

You seem to have a lot of energy to get involved in debates, but you never take time to analyse the subject at hand, shame really, free advice, take it or leave it, consider it or don’t.

]]> By: Iman http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9703 Iman Wed, 27 Sep 2006 02:33:28 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9703 <blockquote>Do you know how many Palestinans were killed during Black September in Jordan, and who killed them?</blockquote> How many? and who? <blockquote>Do you know how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the occupied territories, in the last 60 YEARS?</blockquote> How many? <blockquote>Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began itâ??s â??genocideâ? on Palestinains 60 years ago. And thatâ??s by conservative estimates.</blockquote> Palestinians are baby-making machines!

Do you know how many Palestinans were killed during Black September in Jordan, and who killed them?

How many? and who?

Do you know how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the occupied territories, in the last 60 YEARS?

How many?

Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began itâ??s â??genocideâ? on Palestinains 60 years ago. And thatâ??s by conservative estimates.

Palestinians are baby-making machines!

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9702 Craig Wed, 27 Sep 2006 02:11:23 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9702 Nidal, I'm going to do it yet again, because I enjoy your abusive commentary and my last item has apparrently not provoked you. Do you know how many Palestinans were killed during Black September in Jordan, and who killed them? Do you know how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the occupied territories, in the last 60 YEARS? Find out the answer to those two questions (if you don't already know) and you may begin to understand why this subject is off limits. Kind of makes it hard to accuse Israel of genocide when you know the truth. PS-Syria killed more muslims in 1 day than Israel has in all the years since 1948. And Palestinians killed more Lebanese Christians than Israle killed of Palestinians too. Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began it's "genocide" on Palestinains 60 years ago. And that's by conservative estimates. Nidal, I’m going to do it yet again, because I enjoy your abusive commentary and my last item has apparrently not provoked you.

Do you know how many Palestinans were killed during Black September in Jordan, and who killed them?

Do you know how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the occupied territories, in the last 60 YEARS?

Find out the answer to those two questions (if you don’t already know) and you may begin to understand why this subject is off limits. Kind of makes it hard to accuse Israel of genocide when you know the truth.

PS-Syria killed more muslims in 1 day than Israel has in all the years since 1948.

And Palestinians killed more Lebanese Christians than Israle killed of Palestinians too.

Another intresting item of note. There are over 5 times the number of Palestinians alive today than there were when Israel began it’s “genocide” on Palestinains 60 years ago. And that’s by conservative estimates.

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9681 Craig Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:39:55 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9681 <i>Craig, I am afraid you have done it again!</i> Nidal, of course I did it again. And I'm doing it again now. How can anybody in their right mind think that ignorance is a GOOD thing? Can you point to a single society or culture in any historical context that has deliberately blinded itself to it's own history, and not come out the worse for it? Craig, I am afraid you have done it again!

Nidal, of course I did it again. And I’m doing it again now. How can anybody in their right mind think that ignorance is a GOOD thing? Can you point to a single society or culture in any historical context that has deliberately blinded itself to it’s own history, and not come out the worse for it?

]]> By: Nas http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9676 Nas Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:07:59 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9676 <b>nidal and craig,</b> please take it easy and keep it civil. i was refering to it (black september) being a taboo subject in Jordan, which like it or not, it is. also, craig, i don't recall ever insulting/abusing you in the past but if my memory is failing me right now i apologise in advance. <b>Hamzeh,</b> yes I've seen this interview before and Mashhoor Haditheh was probably the biggest key player in this part of history. a lot of what he said wasn't historically confirmed until much later from the Israeli side, typically from moshe dayan who was a bit infamous for having loose lips. I think a lot of people forget the huge impact the 67 war had on the region. it literally reshaped the realities for all parties. nidal and craig, please take it easy and keep it civil. i was refering to it (black september) being a taboo subject in Jordan, which like it or not, it is. also, craig, i don’t recall ever insulting/abusing you in the past but if my memory is failing me right now i apologise in advance.

Hamzeh, yes I’ve seen this interview before and Mashhoor Haditheh was probably the biggest key player in this part of history. a lot of what he said wasn’t historically confirmed until much later from the Israeli side, typically from moshe dayan who was a bit infamous for having loose lips. I think a lot of people forget the huge impact the 67 war had on the region. it literally reshaped the realities for all parties.

]]> By: Ziad http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9671 Ziad Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:07:41 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9671 Al-Jazeera did a program about it in 2001 which was surprisingly balanced and well-documented: http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1C19440B-36BD-4CBA-A29E-B016A95C44C5.htm http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E11C970D-DBF5-4702-B391-CD6AF1AC75D9.htm Al-Jazeera did a program about it in 2001 which was surprisingly balanced and well-documented:

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1C19440B-36BD-4CBA-A29E-B016A95C44C5.htm

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E11C970D-DBF5-4702-B391-CD6AF1AC75D9.htm

]]> By: Nidal http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9665 Nidal Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:22:09 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9665 Sorry again Nas! Craig, I am afraid you have done it again! which if you have actually bothered to read my previous comment you would have hopefully thought twice about it. lets see! "What historical subjects are taboo in America, Nidal? Or anywhere else in the real world?" who is talking about America! the talk is about Jordan and if you pay attention to original article you will know what topic and where! "I canâ??t believe you suggest being ignorant of your own history is a GOOD thing......................Nobody ever benefitted from living in denial." Not that I care either way, but I am curious about your miraculous ability to judge my views on Jordanian History, considering I have expressed none! there is one part of my previous comment which I am prepared to take back, namely "stupid, which I believe is not the case" on reflection you are at least that stupid, and this has been a waste of my time. Sorry again Nas!
Craig, I am afraid you have done it again! which if you have actually bothered to read my previous comment you would have hopefully thought twice about it.

lets see!
“What historical subjects are taboo in America, Nidal? Or anywhere else in the real world?”
who is talking about America! the talk is about Jordan and if you pay attention to original article you will know what topic and where!

“I canâ??t believe you suggest being ignorant of your own history is a GOOD thing………………….Nobody ever benefitted from living in denial.”

Not that I care either way, but I am curious about your miraculous ability to judge my views on Jordanian History, considering I have expressed none!

there is one part of my previous comment which I am prepared to take back, namely “stupid, which I believe is not the case” on reflection you are at least that stupid, and this has been a waste of my time.

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9663 Craig Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:02:41 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9663 By the way, Nidal, why are you apologizing to NAS in advance for the abuse you heaped on me? NAS has said worse than that to me before. It's not like you're going to encounter an objection. Is this the famed Arab hospitality I always hear about? It's OK for one "guest" to abuse another, as long as the host is apologized to first? By the way, Nidal, why are you apologizing to NAS in advance for the abuse you heaped on me? NAS has said worse than that to me before. It’s not like you’re going to encounter an objection. Is this the famed Arab hospitality I always hear about? It’s OK for one “guest” to abuse another, as long as the host is apologized to first?

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9662 Craig Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:56:01 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9662 Nidal, <i>when you make statements like â??and donâ??t pretend itâ??s a taboo subjectâ? you really look rather stupid</i> What historical subjects are taboo in America, Nidal? Or anywhere else in the real world? I can't believe you suggest being ignorant of your own history is a GOOD thing. And you call ME stupid? Whatever. Enjoy your ignorance. No wonder Jordanians are so hostile and absuive. It's the shame you have never confronted, for your own mis-deeds. The subconsciou mind is not so easliy defeated. Nobody ever benefitted from living in denial. Nidal,

when you make statements like â??and donâ??t pretend itâ??s a taboo subjectâ? you really look rather stupid

What historical subjects are taboo in America, Nidal? Or anywhere else in the real world?

I can’t believe you suggest being ignorant of your own history is a GOOD thing. And you call ME stupid?

Whatever. Enjoy your ignorance. No wonder Jordanians are so hostile and absuive. It’s the shame you have never confronted, for your own mis-deeds. The subconsciou mind is not so easliy defeated. Nobody ever benefitted from living in denial.

]]> By: Hamzeh N. http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9658 Hamzeh N. Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:21:55 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9658 About Al Karameh battle, I think one of the most valuable accounts is the one by Mashhoor Haditheh who was the commander of the Jordanian forces. Here is a link to that interview [<a href="http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5AD83F78-6A0F-468C-9B0D-01F532153DA1.htm" rel="nofollow">link in Arabic</a>] Ironically, a lot of people who are opposed to king Hussain claim that Mashhoor Haditheh said the king ordered him not to engage Israeli troops, which you can read for yourself in the link I provided is absolutely not true because no where in that interview they always cite did he say that. What Mashhoor Haditheh said is that he was notified by Amman while on the battle field that the Israeli side requested a ceasefire, which he denied them until they were fully withdrawn behind the border they crossed. About Black September, I don't really have good sources, but Mashhoor Haditheh talks about it a little too, and I haven't read that part yet. About Al Karameh battle, I think one of the most valuable accounts is the one by Mashhoor Haditheh who was the commander of the Jordanian forces. Here is a link to that interview [link in Arabic]

Ironically, a lot of people who are opposed to king Hussain claim that Mashhoor Haditheh said the king ordered him not to engage Israeli troops, which you can read for yourself in the link I provided is absolutely not true because no where in that interview they always cite did he say that. What Mashhoor Haditheh said is that he was notified by Amman while on the battle field that the Israeli side requested a ceasefire, which he denied them until they were fully withdrawn behind the border they crossed.

About Black September, I don’t really have good sources, but Mashhoor Haditheh talks about it a little too, and I haven’t read that part yet.

]]> By: Iman http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9641 Iman Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:15:49 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9641 <blockquote>What this post IS about is whether this part of history should be studied especially since it is not mentioned in history books written by the Ministry of Education.</blockquote> I believe it should ... but just like the Iraq war and the war on terror would be presented from the US point of view in US history books, black september most probably would be presented from Jordan's point of view...and that's when supplementary readings can be included in schools that give studnets the 'other' view ...or as your question proposes, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to get a roundtable of historiasn to write something collective...get all 3 different accounts (Palestinian/Jordanian/israeli) in a few pages ... and leave it to the reader/student to decide! Naseem, would you share with us the books you read while researching to learn more about alkarameh? Thanks

What this post IS about is whether this part of history should be studied especially since it is not mentioned in history books written by the Ministry of Education.

I believe it should … but just like the Iraq war and the war on terror would be presented from the US point of view in US history books, black september most probably would be presented from Jordan’s point of view…and that’s when supplementary readings can be included in schools that give studnets the ‘other’ view …or as your question proposes, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to get a roundtable of historiasn to write something collective…get all 3 different accounts (Palestinian/Jordanian/israeli) in a few pages … and leave it to the reader/student to decide!

Naseem, would you share with us the books you read while researching to learn more about alkarameh? Thanks

]]> By: Nidal http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9638 Nidal Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:21:03 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9638 Sorry Nas! Craig, you should consider getting your head out of your A*S once in a while, its amazing how some knowledge mixed with ignorance can result in utter stupidity. if you allow your brain for once not to be overawed by ignorance you might consume some new ideas that are agreeable to you, when you make statements like â??and donâ??t pretend itâ??s a taboo subjectâ? you really look rather stupid, which I believe is not the case. For your sake stop pre judging otherâ??s opinions before you allow your brain to process them. Rightly or wrongly this subject is taboo in Jordan (which is what Nas is talking about), you wonâ??t find a sane person who has been to Jordan to disagree, surly even you can realize that you are in no position to make a judgement on such a statement. Sorry Nas!
Craig, you should consider getting your head out of your A*S once in a while, its amazing how some knowledge mixed with ignorance can result in utter stupidity. if you allow your brain for once not to be overawed by ignorance you might consume some new ideas that are agreeable to you, when you make statements like â??and donâ??t pretend itâ??s a taboo subjectâ? you really look rather stupid, which I believe is not the case. For your sake stop pre judging otherâ??s opinions before you allow your brain to process them.

Rightly or wrongly this subject is taboo in Jordan (which is what Nas is talking about), you wonâ??t find a sane person who has been to Jordan to disagree, surly even you can realize that you are in no position to make a judgement on such a statement.

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9633 Craig Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:34:56 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9633 OK I read the Wikipedia article and it is remarkably bad. Especially the spelling and grammar. This is the best part, though: <i>Palestinian militants were driven out to Lebanon as a result of the Cairo Agreement. See Lebanon Civil War.</i> So much information contained in a single sentence, no? OK I read the Wikipedia article and it is remarkably bad. Especially the spelling and grammar. This is the best part, though:

Palestinian militants were driven out to Lebanon as a result of the Cairo Agreement. See Lebanon Civil War.

So much information contained in a single sentence, no?

]]> By: lammoush http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9632 lammoush Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:33:19 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9632 like u, i grew up knowing nothing about that, when i first read the title of this post i was like: what september? as i read on i got it.. i still know very little, there are other parts not taught in history.. thinking about the questions u raise here i dont know the answer myself, normally people should know history, but the age, mentality, and way of education are things to think about.. like u, i grew up knowing nothing about that, when i first read the title of this post i was like: what september? as i read on i got it.. i still know very little, there are other parts not taught in history.. thinking about the questions u raise here i dont know the answer myself, normally people should know history, but the age, mentality, and way of education are things to think about..

]]> By: Craig http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9631 Craig Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:25:45 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9631 I imagine every article ever written about Black September will be pretty biased from your points of view. The rest of us actually know what happened, and don't pretend it's a taboo subject. It was even in my old Encyclopedia Britannica back when I was a kid. I imagine every article ever written about Black September will be pretty biased from your points of view. The rest of us actually know what happened, and don’t pretend it’s a taboo subject. It was even in my old Encyclopedia Britannica back when I was a kid.

]]> By: Nas http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9624 Nas Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:54:12 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9624 hamzeh, yeah wikipedia isn't the best source on issues such as this. especially an article citing arabtimes as a reference. hamzeh, yeah wikipedia isn’t the best source on issues such as this. especially an article citing arabtimes as a reference.

]]> By: Hamzeh N. http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9623 Hamzeh N. Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:28:55 +0000 http://www.black-iris.com/2006/09/26/the-darkest-september/#comment-9623 I just checked and there is actually a wiki page on Black September. It's pretty weak though and is unfortunately, quite obviously biased. I just checked and there is actually a wiki page on Black September. It’s pretty weak though and is unfortunately, quite obviously biased.

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