And more important than all of that, whatever you might feel is the Islamic punishment, I think it’s interesting to note that they are all corporal. And this man’s punishment was in no way corporal. The Prophet SAW never locked any sexual abuser or rapist in a prison, and Allah knows best.

harsh punishment though, and I think the Jordanians know harsh, from what I hear…

You are leniant, I am not

Mohannad, thanks for being so patient with me in this discussion, but I have to respond to the statement above, because it ignores my whole point. This is not about leniency, it is about extremism in the face of logic, law, reason and even religion. I don’t want the conclusion to be that my position on this is just something that is “lenient” and that the other position (yours) is just as right but just not as lenient, because it isn’t right. There is absolutely no reason to insist on extreme measures, and to even insist on them when you are shown that these extreme measures don’t even apply. This is the same extremism that leads men in our societies to kill their children, the children you acknowledged are a7bab Allah, for such silly reasons as often reported in our newspapers. This is a problem and my whole point is to point it out, not to dismiss it as something that is permissible but for which a more lenient alternative exists. No, a lot of what you said is not permissible and is a problem. So saying you’re not lenient is not enough, because one can be non lenient while still being right. That is not the case here.

Much respect.

Hamzeh:
You are leniant, I am not, I will stone his testicles first then I would crush everything in his body before I kill him!!Thats all I can say…childhood for me is the most valuable thing in life!!
To make this story more fun: There was a judge from our relatives who ruled in a case close to this, the father used to molest the girl and abuse the mother and one day the girl poured gas on him while he was asleep and torched his A$$, the judge I think ruled her 3 months and therapy, of course the motherf$#%er was dead thanks to god…
Anyways God bless you all, I know you all are good people, but we have to protect our children and our community, thats all…

And no, I am not saying the sickness can be an excuse, what I am saying that sickness can be what triggered the man to behave this way. If you want to call it evil then be it, why this man ended up under the power of evil while many others didnt? He certainly wouldn’t choose to be evil if he really had the choice.

I disagre with you about the punishment of death being a prevention of such crimes. There has been always harsh punishment but it never stopped crimes. There has alway been prostitutes when they were condemned to death, there has always been alcoholics where alcohol were forbidden, there has always been theives when hands were cut, their has always been murderers when there has been a rule that a murdered should be murdered. People usually do crimes when it is out of their hands. Prisons now has evolved to be a rehabilitation centers. What we should do for criminals is treat them and rehabilitate them in order to be able to be able to get back to society and live a healthy life. Somethings cannot be cured, and that is why maybe we should keep some in prison for the rest of thei lives, just to keep their harms off society, but death sentence is inhuman. It wont fix anything, and wont prevent anything.

1- Molestation and rape are not the same thing. In your last two comments you only talked about rape. Even regarding rape you get Islam’s viewpoint wrong. You quoted a hadith. I quoted a full fatwa by a well known muslim scholar from a well known and credible source (Islam Online). The fatwa is more inclusive than the hadith, and the hadith you quoted does not conflict with the fatwa; it only historically documents one of the cases mentioned in the fatwa.

2- Even if you argue that molestation can be categorized under the crimes committed by a “mo7areb”, the Islamic verdict on that is clear; death is not the only option. It is the most extreme of the options available though, and there is something for you to think about in that. Isn’t insisting on the extreme a form of extremism? And if God granted people other options that are less extreme, then is it so wise to ignore God’s other offers and insist on that one that is most extreme?

“When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)

“adds that if the crime cannot be proven using 4 witnesses or confession”
There is now something called science that can prove if a woman was raped or not, which was not the case 1400 years ago.

“It simply is not, when the two terms are to be compared, they are to be compared in the context of sex offenses, and the two describe two different kinds of sex offenses.”

Is it maybe becasue 1400 years ago girls were married when they were 9, but I don’t want to get into that now.

“Now of course, if the father did use a weapon, then he is a “mo7areb”, ”

So phsycological force and parental control is not considered a kind of force? If this is islam then I am not a muslim!!Bro, what was valid 1400 years maybe is not valid now, you build logicaly on gods rules and you don’t link it to only specific times and places, you must be logical when you try to take some rules out of the quran and the sunna..

Anyway I think that should be enough regarding this issue, I will not change anything and neither you will, so we will just leave it for god, and by the way if some day some one did that to my kids even if the judge ruled him to prison I will kill him with my own hands!!

This makes it clear that the death penalty is not used in all rape cases, and even when the death penalty is justified (when the use of a weapon is involed), there are other options that the judge can use.

Furthermore, it makes it very clear that rape refers to forcing the victim to engage in sexual intercourse, thereby negating your argument that child molestation is a form of rape. It simply is not, when the two terms are to be compared, they are to be compared in the context of sex offenses, and the two describe two different kinds of sex offenses.

Now of course, if the father did use a weapon, then he is a “mo7areb”, but even then, the judge doesn’t need to sentence him to death. That liberty to not choose the death sentence is not granted to the judge by the state, nor by the judge himself, but by God in the Quran. So it cannot be taken away.

Now molestation: Thers is something called phsychological force which the father used on his daughters so in my opinion this is also a rape which terrorized and desrtoyed the two poor girls and even terrorized anyone with common sence.. Now you would say that he didn’t terrorize us, I Would say that in amman explosions all jordan was terrorized even though only hundreds of people were actually harmed, so this molestation act is terrorizng the whole community and his punishment also should not be less than the previous one that I said.

Also, what do these two little girls represent?Do you look at them just like two random humans or like the beuty of life and what life is all about?Children is the essence of life, they must be sacred and never ever harmed, I look at children as the most valuable thing in life, they are more valuable than my life and yours because they are the love of GOD!!

In all from what I read in your comments I see that you look at it from a legal perspective, which by the way is far from islam. Anyway sorry for wasting your time and it was good talking to you.

The observer:

Sickness now a days is used as an execuse, so only if the individual is completely insane there is no such thing as choice, his actions toward his wife and the two poor girls shows that he is a sane person but with evil deeds, and if this guy knew that he would be killed or even worse he would have thought about it twice, same goes for stealing if the theaf knew that his hand will be cut if he stole he will not do it..

And you can use the same argument that you used here for honor crimes; the father is sick he had a party after he killed his daughter and he was also mad because of her actions so lets just put both of the rapist and the killer in rehab and everything will turn out to be ok in our society!!Can you hear what you are saying!!Illness is not an execuse for committing crimes;you would say he has no control over his actions so how did he manage to live all these years without anyone noticing that he is not normal!!

Oh my god, when I began writing this reply I was kinda cool but now I swear I am mad as hell!!PEOPLE THESE ARE CHILDREN!!!THEY ARE THE MOST BEATIFUL THING IN LIFE, THERE MUST BE NO MERCY ON THIS SICK BASTARD!!

So I’m not saying child molesters are all sick and in need for treatment and that that’s the reason they should not be killed, and I’m not saying there is absolutely no common ground to agree on with what Mohannad is saying. My argument is focussed and directed towards the punishment part and how it doesn’t need to be death.

By the way, here’s a fatwa about the punishment for rape:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1125407868541

i think the two sides here are of the same coin. hamzeh is pointing to the terminology, the specific use of the words: “rape” and “molestation”. To focus on this terminology can be important because we have to keep in mind they are weighed down by legal definitions and legal consequences, as well they should. There is a direct difference between the two and if we simply merge them then we are opening a door to include a lot of people who would not necessarily be or should be included.

that being said: mohanned is looking at this from the broader social perspective. and i would also agree with his view that they can be the same thing: a form of sexual abuse. rape being a physical violation. in essence we may look down on both acts with disgust and thus blur their meanings but then we’re not taking into account for example a little girl that does not know she is being violated, as opposed to a grown women jumped in an alleyway.

so although we can judge them both as similar acts the legal definitions are important: they allocate proper forms of justice.

in other words, there’s a way to agree with both perspectives, on a social and legal level.

that’s just my opinion, but i wanted to make sure that everyone involved in this discussion can see they are really talking about the same coin.

thanks

I am glad you Kinzi got back to your merciful state.

I kind of agree with Hamza.

No one can deny how awful it is what this mand did to his daughters. The amount of pain they have to indure because of his sickness cannot be described. But as you people stated above, he is a SICK man. If he is a normal man, he wouldn’t harm his daughters this way.

Now my question to you. Did he choose to be sick? Would any sane man choose to be sick and hurt his family this way?

I am not defending his actions, and I understand that it is insance to ask merciful for anyone acting this way. But try to look at it objectively (and I know that I wouldn’t see it this way if the one molested is a relative of mine), this man is sick, he is a victim of his sickness as much as his daughter. Being locked in prison is a good option to prevent him from causing more damage to other people. If there is no cure to such sickness, then a full life in prison would be the answer. There should be no incarceration, there should be no death penalty, there should be no physical abuse. There should be treatment, if it didnt work, then a seperation from children.

It is awful, but killing isn’t the answer.

(which also include both molestation and molestation)

err, that should read “(which also include molestation)”.

Dude I wanna throw up

Dude, stop saying you want to throw up and do it already. They say you always feel better after throwing up anyway.

It’s a matter of basic English. Open the dictionary and look up both words: rape and molest. I hope I don’t have to explain to you what the concept of “context” means. In the context of sexual abuse, rape doesn’t describe all acts of sexual abuse (which also include both molestation and molestation), it only describes the act of forcing someone to have sexual intercourse. This is mentioned in very specific words in the dictionary.

If the father had raped his daughters, why wasn’t the story reported as a rape case? I think it should be clear now that this story is not about rape, but child molestation.

Regarding Islam’s verdict on child molestation (not rape), it seems that you have done the research so kindly provide the references. I personally searched Islam Online’s “Ask the scholar” archives and didn’t find anything on child molestation.

so letting his daughter give him a blowjob is cool with you

Exactly how did you come up with this fantastic conclusion?

Thank you nas for this post that showed how some people think!!

Indeed!

“Molestation can be carried without sexual intercourse.”
Dude I wanna throw up when I read this statment!!so letting his daughter give him a blowjob is cool with you, or as you say it is not the same as rape..For rape you must have an intercourse as you stated, so there is no such thing as raped childhood or raped land..

Thank you nas for this post that showed how some people think!!

So you don’t consider the molesting of his 2 daughters to be rape?

No I don’t, and if you do, then I can inform you that you are wrong. Open the dictionary or go to dictionary.com and lookup the definition. Rape is forcing someone to have sexual intercourse. Molestation can be carried without sexual intercourse.

god said that there should be no mercy on this kind of people!!

Where does God say that child molestors should be killed (even tortured)? I am not aware of such verdict at least in Islam.

Kinzi, no disagreement with what you said.

If the perpetrator is willing to receive therapy, and is not a repeat offender, then incarceration could be enough. If they repeat, then their right to live freely vs. the cost of innocent children’s right to live should be reconsidered. imho

He deserves nothing more than what would be given to a cockroach that hurt your child - immediate and painful death.

Shame on those who are even SLIGHTLY defending this monster’s actions.