If it’s OK outside Ramadan, it’s OK.

Anyone who says anything different is doing what my friend in the U.S. is doing, and I quote:

“Dude i can’t wait for Ramadan to be over I need to go out and GET WASTED this weekend.”

heh

A few weeks ago I read on yahoo news about a small town in FL where a law has been passed to ban saggy baggy hip-hop pants, how funny is that? But the point is, for god’s sake get over it! Even the western communities have their own set of regulations and laws where the majority is granted what make them comfortable. The law did not stop you from eating, drinking or doing whatever you want in your own privacy under your own set of personal choices. Stack your liquor up for a whole month and drink in your own home or wherever no harm, or foul is caused. There is no need for you to do that out in public.

Reading is an intellectual pursuit, and it makes no sense to turn such a place into a bar or gathering spot for immoral activities.

There’s nothing “immoral” about bars or gathering spots. The tradition of combining books and alcohol is a long and excellent one.

Personally, I find nothing better than sitting inside a warm cafe on a cool autumn day, reading Tolkien and having a glass of mulled wine.

Perhaps its “immoral” to enjoy myself – but ascribing evil meanings to perfectly pleasurable activities is also a long, if not-so-excellent, tradition.

I love how this issue has been turned into something where one has to pick a “side” and there is no nuance, and there are “loyalists” or whatever.

It’s a great way of moving goal-posts in a discussion, so the real issues don’t get addressed.

in hindsight and armed with the recent knowledge that Books loyalists (propably 1 guy with a laptop) are capable of laying without blinking, I am tempted to believe the government story, that inspectors did find enough violations to close Books@Cafe.

Let’s take this case apart.

FACT: Books@Cafe has not been targeted alone. Had Books been targeted alone, we may have suspected foul play and selective enforcement of the law. But there are about two dozen other cafes that have been shut.

FACT: This is not about banning alcohol. there are a few dozen hangouts open in Ramadan in Amma serving alcohol during Ramadan. So again, the religion argument just does not hold water, despite Books loyalists efforts to twist this into a a religious intolerance cause.

But what’s happening is that Books@Cafe loyalists want exemptions and preferential treatment. That’s as immoral and illegal as selective enforcement of the law. You let roaches into your kitchen, you don’t deserve to serve food.

Case closed.

i didnt mean getting closed down by competition, i meant closed down by the authorities for no solid reason

But come to think of it, I have no tolerance for religious bigots, so both work…

This is getting seriously boring.

As has been established, alcohol sales in Books are LEGAL. They have the paperwork to prove it. My decision to drink alcohol in Books – or in La Calle, Champions, the Square Bar in the Four Seasons, etc – is completely LEGAL.

Therefore, Komar (and Londoner, and Maad), I AM ENGAGING IN A LEGAL ACTIVITY.

So your comparisons with heroin and, even more laughably, incest are nothing less than moronic – and UTTERLY IRRELEVANT.

So, again, what is LEGALLY in MY GLASS and is being LEGALLY poured down MY THROAT has no bearing on you. Hey, in La Calle, they even serve beer in plastic cups – so you don’t even know what I’m drinking and can’t be “offended” by it.

(By the way, where’s my right not be “offended” by the intolerance of my beliefs? When I’m drinking, I’m not forcing anyone else to, so why does your abstinence have to include me?)

This is simple, Komar, the religious nutcases – and their incredibly tedious supporters – aren’t enforcing a LEGAL statute, but an incredibly arbitrary RELIGIOUS one. I don’t share their faith-based prohibition of alcohol, so they can all f**k off and take their thuggery somewhere else. Like Saudi.

In eight days, though, I’ll gladly buy you a beer… isn’t that when the 30-day Muslims suddenly forget their deep, deep piety and return to Nai and Eight????

Even a liberal country like France controls what you pour down your throat. That’s’ why there are age limits and limit of % of alcohol in drinks and licensing of those who can sell alcohol. Even Sweden will no let you shoot up heroin up your vain even though it’s your body. Even Italy will not let you pop certain pills down your throat without prescription even if you are not endangering your life. Your defective understanding of the concept of personal freedoms leads you to such dumb conclusions about what you can or can’t do.

Your no-harm-to-others rule to personal freedoms simply applies in your imagination. If we go along with your criteria of what you should be allowed to do, maybe we should legalize incest, since according to your no-harm-to-others, anything between two consenting adults is their business.

but if you turn Books@Cafe into a members-only club, I have no problem with turning it into a safe heaven for anarchists, so long as it does not use a Cafe/Restaurant/Bookstore title as a front. Call it Jabal Amman Lawless & Narcissist Youth Society (JALNYS) It even sounds nice. And no one will misunderstand it and you will be left alone.

jesting aside, i hope Books is reopened. But I hope Madian jazeera does something to salvage Books’ image from the damage a few of his customers have done to it. Amazing how some people can be so repulsive they can actually turn supporters into detractors. Madian deserves better than to have your likes take his side.

If I want to defeat a cause, I will make sure you and your rotten lot support it first. That would do the trick.

How many times do I have to repeat myself so sensitive souls like you finally understand the argument??

What is in my glass, being poured down my throat, has nothing to do with you. It doesn’t affect you, it doesn’t impact on you, so unless you have a secret fondness for the actions of the Saudi morality police, butt the f**k out of my business and I will continue to replenish my thirst the way I choose.

Okay?

Why are people so keen to stop me from doing something LEGAL in a LEGAL establishment that has obtained LEGAL permission to serve me the drink of MY CHOICE.

I have not “violated” any law; in fact, by drinking a beverage a place with PERMISSION to serve that beverage to me, I am OBSERVING the laws.

Got that?

You, though, seem to support the arbitrary closure of an establishment by a bunch of ministry thugs even though that establishment went to every length to obtain the necessary licences to run its business.

I’m sorry, but I don’t want LEGAL conduct to be arbitrarily interfered with by religious zealots with NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT TO DO than harass people who don’t share their medieval morality.

Narcissistic? Maybe… but it’s not me trying to enforce my perspectives on other people. That’s arrogance only people with blind, irrational faith can muster.

you can replace wine with anything, gum, cheese, water, cigarettes, it doesn’t matter. The point is that their belief is being imposed on you. If you wanted to fast during Ramadan in that country, where would you go? Are you stuck at home for a whole month?

How would that make you feel?

I am not a practicing Muslim but when i read stupid arguments like this I cringe. I can easily reply that Jordan is a Muslim country and when you MADE A CHOICE to violate the VERY tolerant customs and traditions that say be discrete when you consume alcohol for 30 days during Ramadan and YOU DECIDE TO BE RUDE AND INSOLENT instead, I couldn’t give a crap whether they fine you, jail you, or deport you depending on the circumstances. You don’t make your own stupid rules about which places are off limit to anyone. The only place that’s off limit is your home. A public cafe is NOT A SAFE HEAVEN since it’s open to the public. DUH!!!! And if you engage in disrespectful conduct in a public place you should expect some consequences.

Man, some of the most intolerant and offensive Jordanians are those who hoist the banner of tolerance.

We are so sick and tired of this rudeness. I could care less if they shutdown the goddamn cafe for good. Not for serving alcohol of which I am regular consumer but for harboring such arrogant pricks and for being a nurturing environment to such ars***s

YOU NARCISSIST FREAKS! DO YOU REALIZE HOW TOTALLY REVOLTING YOU COME ACROSS!!!

1. Books serves alcohol year round… Islam forbids drinking alcohol year round. If it is acceptable for Books to serve alcohol in a majority Muslim state for 11 months of the year, any particular exception for Ramadan is nonsensical – and clearly hyporitical.

2. If practicing Muslims are so “offended” by the contents of the glasses of people sitting at adjacent tables, then they wouldn’t be in a place that openly advertises its provision of alcohol at all…

3. And knowing that Books serves alcohol, any practicing Muslim entering the establishment has made a choice to sit by me, not the other way round. And I couldn’t give crap whether they’re offended that I’m partaking of the beverages on offer. They can easily leave.

4. There are millions of cafes and restaurants in Amman that don’t serve alcohol at any time – and not just during Ramadan – so why do religious nut-jobs demand the right to close down the few that do?

5. Why does your religion retain the right to dictate what people of different faiths do in their leisure time? Don’t Jordan’s Christian population – who’ve been here for centuries – deserve their liberties as citizens?

Lowfields – if what you drink or eat is forbidden by a religion, then you doing so in public is offensive to its followers if you sit amongst them….if i follow your logic lets go to the middle of Hindu India and open a butchey and call it the Sacred Cow, hmmmm now why would anyone get offended with what i sell? same as offering non-kosher meat in the middle of a jewish orthodox neighbourhood etc. so simply serve alcohol in ramadan amongst muslim communities…its called respecting their customs and rules, not a sign of fragility……hell can you tell me why the veil is banned in schools then in France?! thats not even banned in their religion!

anyway i think the majority’s wishes should be respected if it stays within the law, end of….

The answer is simple.
When one wants liberation, one has to get ready to enjoy the whole package; freedom and free liberties and eventually a free country does not come without a toll of taxes.
It’s the rules of the free market — many malls have opened in Amman recently, have you asked about the kind of damage they have done to the private individual businesses in their areas? Basically big businesses eat small businesses; American economy is just an example of this. The free liberal market is the graveyard of small businesses; giants and whales will keep pushing (legally or illegally) to get their share of every single profit they can achieve. And small businesses will fight at first, but without a chance of surviving!

How can a Jordanian set up a company, a restaurant, a bar, with completely legal papers and approvals from all sides necessary with the knowledge that at anytime someone can come and close it down.

That means theres absolutely no security to any individual…

this isnt the first time this kind of thing happens, look at the lands of abdali who were just taken from their owners at a fraction of their price, whether they wanted to sell or not. Look at the random lands that have been taken to build schools and museums…

this is a trend and as long as the Jordanian people sit there and do nothing, its only going to get worse…

forget the narrowminded self-centered view of “ah ur offending my religion” and look at the big picture

Yep, you got to the heart of it, Londoner…! I drink a glass a wine or a pint of beer in a private establishment as an act of rebellion and a deliberate insult to your sensibilities! I’m the James f***ing Dean of Amman!

It’s good to debate with someone who has such keen insight into my motives for my choice of refreshment!

Londoner, what I put down my throat in an evening, whether in a restaurant or my dining room, has absolutely no impact on you – or, indeed, anything other than my liver and possibly my ability to make a coherent argument after 2am.

Similarly, your faith is your concern, and whatever set of ancient tales you have selected to guide your life, it’s better if they have no impact anyone’s choice of beverage – or where it is offered to paying customers.

Seriously, why do you care what a privately owned, privately run establishment does behind its doors? How does that affect you or your faith…? Is it that fragile that you have to proscribe its limits to others who don’t share it???

As a non-muslim Jordanian, I could care less for your unjust analysis of this issue.This has nothing to do with religion. We non-muslims DO NOT suffer from discrimination in Jordan, this is your Islamophobic mind telling you things that make your life easier to handle, thats all. Why dont you go spew your ignorance somewhere else, maybe at a Jesus camp or something. Praise the Lord now!

first off lowfields – you say enjoy wine “in private”, well whats wrong with that? who is to stop anyone go buy a bottle in ramadan in front of people, invite his friends and drink it over dinner at home? No one. so we are only talking about serving it in public…so thats one….

second you say “Seriously, how many places sell alcohol in Amman during Ramadan…? 15? 20? Yet because your religion finds alcohol distasteful, you want to close them all down for a month and remove people’s choice on whether they can drink it or not” – again same mistake, last time i checked the supermarket in amman selling all kinds of vodka 365 days a year was still open in ramadan, people are most welcome to go buy and enjoy with friends in private…the restriction was just on bars and pubs serving drinks in public which takes the matter from a personal choice (enjoying alcohol in private) to simply poking other people in the eye and staging an act of defiance of basic muslim rules in its most holy month (might as well have a happy hour before breaking the fasting…) which is just tasteless…if I use the “remove people choice” argument then soon the city will be filled with brothels and casinos which goes against being a muslim country (Islamic rules in some cases overrule any personal freedom same as you remove the choice of divorced people to get married again in some religions)…

Azmi – i didnt talk about borders, even thou the borders of Egypt and Sudan have been there before 1921, but was rather responding to Glubb Pacha and the comment “arab countries are colonial inventions”, when Egypt and its main cities (Cairo, Alexandria etc.) have been there before most European countries, so read the words carefully before you go into sarcasm…

In case you don’t know, in most Arab nations, their laws explicitly claim that they are based upon Islam and sharia… from that point on it is clear that non-Muslims are second class citizens. There is not real separation of mosque and state in Muslim countries and most people do not even want it. If a society still has problems, the clerics have two basic solutions: 1. blame others (The West, jews, colonialism, the crusades, lack of democracy, poverty, imperialism, etc…) and 2. Impose more Islam because Muslims are obviously not yet practicing the “true” Islam (whatever that is!). (Observation: From my reading of the Quran, hadith and Islamic history, it seems that “pure Islam” = “perfect human society” which may take a long time, maybe about 1,000,000,000 years give or take a few). Of course, to make these rules work, a morality police is needed and soon all human actions are controlled by a few clerics that have a right to impose their values (or lack thereof) on all.

Soon, what little freedoms still exist in a country will be gone (I am talking about a moderate country like jordan). This is the way things are going and it will get worse. The government cannot oppose this, because to do so would cause them to be seen as unislamic. By closing this store, the government is saying “We are true Muslims” and it hopes it will curry favor with the Islamists. So, more Islam and less freedoms, and the few remaining non-Muslims will be forced to leave. This is what is happening in all of the Middle East.

This is why I, a non-Muslim, have no respect for your religion. Until I see a change in the way Muslims treat others where they dominate, I see no reason to think that Muslims are anything but hypocrites.

To those Muslims here who have stood up and opposed this measure, I thank you. I just wish there were more of you. The sad part is that you too are in trouble because of the increasing radicalization of the Muslim population. You cannot stop it because to speak out against it would be seen as speaking out against Islam because these rules are based upon Islam (in theory, at least). So, it will get worse.

Too bad.

Kactuz

1- I disagree with the government decision of closing down businesses in Ramadan.

2- I disagree with people telling people how to run their lives; every one is free to believe in whatever faith one likes – drinking, smoking, gambling …etc is a totally personal matter.

3- I don’t think the closing of books@ café is a real cause.

4- I don’t think Madian is a leader of a cause; it’s his personal business, personal issue, thus largely biased.

5- All the people who spoke for his case should STILL feel guilty of not speaking up for other causes, because it’s their duty to do so, if they can do it for one noble reason, they can do it for another.

6- Book@ café is not privileged for the gentrification of Jabal Amman, the area was already a cultural hub long before books@ café, and gentrification concerns slum areas, I would agree if book@cafe was opened in some less fortunate areas on the outskirts of Amman, or in the remote south of Jordan.

7- From what I’ve seen, it seems that anything that strikes chords with Western values and contradicts our own is so easy to talk about (especially in English), and thus cannot truely be our cause nor our challenge. Rallying the West against our culture is not a heroic act, whatever personal sacrifices or liberties one has to give-up, or else it would be a selfish act.

8- The whole issue has taken a lot more attention than its real worth.

The problems we face today as a nation and as a people are CONSTANTLY being reported in the mainstream media and even talked about throughout social circles.

Well, as a writer, I think that there’s a vast difference between something being reported, or discussed with friends, and a DIRECT public statement from someone adversely affected in a personal manner.

How many people are out there giving thoughtful, detailed, firsthand accounts of, say, being related to someone who murdered his sister and got 6 months in jail for it? And having to live with that for the rest of their lives? And having others around them AGREE with the murderer?

Jordan is a small country. It doesn’t take a lot for people to start talking. But honest personal accounts affect people differently, we see it time and time again.

Having said all that, the class element cannot be discounted. Jordan is extremely stratified. Furthermore, if you’re poor, have little to no education, and must engage in back-breaking labour for most of the day just to keep yourself fed, you don’t usually have time for eloquence.

Very few people transcend that divide.

When you’re privileged, you often fall into the trap of speaking “for” someone. In the case of Madian, you’re speaking “with” someone. So it becomes not only easier, it feels more legitimate for you to speak up.

I don’t know what the solution is either. That’s the ultimate problem. Down the road? Increased prosperity. That’s all I can think of.

Natalia, while I agree that, in this specific case, Madian took the opportunity to voice his issue strongly and rally people to that issue, which he is free to do…I highly disagree with your above statement.

The problems we face today as a nation and as a people are CONSTANTLY being reported in the mainstream media and even talked about throughout social circles. From corruption to law enforcement to the various cases that are always taking place. And despite all the trespasses we experience and endure, there is silence.

So many of these issues, such as corruption, are indeed personal stories and highly controversial. They get reported in the press and there’s silence from the same people who chose to speak up now.

There’s something to be said about that.

Hence my argument here.

Where are those voices then?

Well, they’re not getting galvanized, are they? So much of what happens is merely reported in the press – which is important, obviously, but it doesn’t automatically put a face and a voice to the issue.

As Nadine mentioned, Madian spoke up. He made the entire thing very personal, which is important, if you want people to care. And that’s why so many people reacted so strongly.

So many other things just don’t get spoken of in that way. This has a lot to do with society, the way that rules are constructed, what is “the done thing” and what “isn’t done.”

Madian had the opportunity to do something many do not. Or else an opportunity that many do not take up, for a variety of reasons.