Comments on: Anti-Normalization Protesters Beaten In Jordan: Permission To Speak Freely Sir?

By: mo

mo — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 06:44:42 +0000

i think this quote from the article i linked to sums it up …

القضية ليست قضية فاكهة لم يكن الشعب الأردني يعرفها إلى زمن قريب، ولكنها قضية فرض إرادات. فإن أمكن فرض الأفوكادو والمانغا والكاكا والكيوي القادمة من المستوطنات على الشعب الأردني بالعصي والهراوات، فقد تم فرض المستوطنات بكل ما تمثله وما تجره معها

By: mo

mo — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:41:02 +0000

no ..
what i’m saying is i shouldn’t have the option to buy it or not .. that’s what i’m saying ..

By: bambam

bambam — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:37:13 +0000

hmm so the whole situation devolves into they are forcing you to eat avocado and persimmons with a stick … how about that for soundbites. Again not the point and its childish … you don’t support it, don’t buy it no body is forcing you to .

By: mo

mo — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:14:03 +0000

nice piece by toujan faisal on the subject ..

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9E510648-25F4-4366-B688-D9D1135EB117.htm

By: mo

mo — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:38:07 +0000

bambam nobody called u an arab zionist or a traitor .. so no need for the drama ..
however u did say ..

“Here is another silly idea, the goverment is not the one buying the product; busniesses and individuals are … find who they are and protest against them”

and that is why i said what i said about european governments ..

further reading ..
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0811/S00199.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/barghouti11132008.html

i think u should be discussing why jordan is allowing the import of settlement goods in the first place .. instead of focusing on if the engineer union has a right to protest or not .. that’s kind of beside the point imho

By: bambam

bambam — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:53:40 +0000

lol … how did my argument of “they had it coming for breaking the law and they are protesting at the wrong place ” turn into “an arab Zionist defending israeli settlements right to poison the arab world with their produce … TRAITOR ! ” is that super power of self delusion again ?

By: mo

mo — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:41:07 +0000

“Just a note to some who think that a peace treaty means its OK to buy Israeli - no its not please look up BDS- Boycott Divestment and Sanctions for Palestine - this is how we as individuals, or organizations or as governments we can pressure Israel to end occupation.”

this is true .. i’d like to add that these goods are not “israeli goods” they are “settlement goods” .. and there is a difference .. it’s all stolen land to me but you know international law considers israel a country and settlements occupied land ..

http://www.alarabalyawm.net/pages.php?wcase=1

so to bambam and the rest who are defending importing such goods .. i’d like to tell you that some european countries are boycotting such goods on the grounds that they are produced in occupied land .. so if europe is doing it .. i guess we should be doing it too?

By: bambam

bambam — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:41:34 +0000

I can’t help my self …. asking a government to boycott something is simply stating “hey big daddy i truly can’t help myself from not buying that israeli product and I think you are doing a bad thing by giving me the choice to buy it and you should not provide me that choice.” ….
hmmm childish ? i think so.
Here is another silly idea, the goverment is not the one buying the product; busniesses and individuals are … find who they are and protest against them … when you sign trade agreements and free trade treaties (whether you agree with them or not) you need to maintain your credibility by either renouncing them or committing to them. you can’t as a country do what the engineering society does and have one’s cake and eat it too …

By: shalabieh

shalabieh — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:15:24 +0000

Just a note to some who think that a peace treaty means its OK to buy Israeli - no its not please look up BDS- Boycott Divestment and Sanctions for Palestine - this is how we as individuals, or organizations or as governments we can pressure Israel to end occupation.

A live example of that is how BDS affected the end of the South African Apartied system after years of struggle the role of the international community this way helped immensely. So yes asking the government not to buy Israeli does make a difference and when you buy you make a choice everytime you spend a tiny piaster on something.

By: mo

mo — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:25:52 +0000

grace .. it’s spelled “cavalier” btw

By: grace

grace — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:05:15 +0000

Totally off the point but why are we so cavelier with spelling, particularly of names:

Baccalaureate becomes “Bacalorya”
Orthodox becomes “Orthodoxi” and so many other similar Jordanisation of names abound.

Many of the streets and avenues of Amman are named for people who would not recognise their names as the Municipality of Amman chooses to spell them, although in most cases there is a spelling which is known and accepted world wide as such !

By: mo

mo — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:32:33 +0000

aslan protests are haram .. the saudi mufti said so during the war on gaza ..

nas .. in case ur sarcasm radar still isn’t working properly that was sarcasm

By: bambam

bambam — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:49:50 +0000

Mohannad; they do … its called the IAF; they certainly intermingle. its just they have a bigger space to do it under this “entity”. as for your first question no i don’t think it should limit you as an individual but if you want to organize it illegally under the name of a legal association then don’t except the government to turn a blind eye to this, which they always do .
anyways we can all agree about the beatings not being the best way to handle this but that is the normal by product of any protest and its always expected, thats my opinion … i just think those guys got a lot more publicity, protection and consideration than some of the people at the beginning of the year

By: Diala

Diala — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:00:27 +0000

What’s funny about this discussion, with all due respect, is that we’re still debating the right of free speech and the right for assembly!!

What’s also funny is that the police officer beating up the protester reminded me of Israeli soldiers beating up Palestinians at checkpoints. Or is that a stretch?!

If a bunch of rich kids from the Bacalorya and Montessori schools were protesting and were filmed being beaten up like this, would we be even having this discussion to begin with? Or do women with headscarves and men with beards bring back memories of “uncivilized”?!

Ah, Sarkozy must be laughing at us!

By: Mohanned

Mohanned — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:49:39 +0000

“1. Is there a line in the peace treaty that says all demonstrations against Israel are banned and must be violently put down? ”

TO give you an idea: The whole elections law was changed so that the treaty could pass the parliment, so go figure..Democracy and Peace with Israel can’t co-exist, got it?

Bam,
“I don’t get how individual protesters for a cause can be confused with legally recognized entity that is over stepping their boundaries ”

Does this mean that being an engineer and a member of the assocition should limit my ability to freely express my opinions or protest? I think you mean that they need to find a different platform and/or create another entity to represent them politically, right? Do you think the regime will allow such thing to happen?

By: Monty

Monty — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:40:18 +0000

Wow…the blase attitude of people is really disturbing…”ooh, we have normalisation, deal with it”…”there are some people who like to buy those goods, let them”….thats just shocking…if that was the attitude of people towards apartheid south africa then the whites would still be oppressing the blacks there. I don’t know whats worse - the idiots who blame Israel for everything, or the idiots who come up with crap like that.

What i would like to know is the following:

1. Is there a line in the peace treaty that says all demonstrations against Israel are banned and must be violently put down?

2. What kind of training are the police receiving that they always seem ready to beat the crap out their compatriots, particularly those protesting against Israel!?

By: The Free Jordanian

The Free Jordanian — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:27:21 +0000

MO,,I might add ,the subject is not only whether we have the right to protest this shameful relationship with this usurping criminal entity that have for long time supported this puppet western/Zionist illegal government..

By: bambam

bambam — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:22:20 +0000

I don’t get how individual protesters for a cause can be confused with legally recognized entity that is over stepping their boundaries … you are talking about democracy and change, from a professional association? bleh i don’t get and somehow the pharmas are at fault for using the ownly tool within their means … what logic is that ?

By: Mohanned

Mohanned — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:19:21 +0000

- Some are saying that some people are better than others, thus rights shouldn’t be granted equally..Hmm…Class supremacy?
- Some people are arriving to conclusions that they present as realities when in fact they are only assumptions.
- The “there is a law” argument is a tired one. Laws are changed constantly, legally and illegaly. And something being a “law” doesn’t mean that it is right or just.
- While I agree that professional associations should stay profissional, I don’t see an alternative to them getting involved in politics. Yes in many cases they are hypocrites but that must not mean that we should condone limiting their rights.
- Jordan is ranked 5th in the world when it comes to “security” spending as a percentage of the GDP..What does this number mean? I mean, who should we congratulate on this?

By: moi

moi — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:55:22 +0000

I guess I shouldn’t be shocked, but I am…sadly. Regardless of these individuals’ positions, whether they have been consistent or not in their support for human rights, whether they are using this to promote a certain agenda or not, their right to free speech and assembly should be recognized, protected, and defended.
To insinuate that some people are not “civilized” enough to be allowed to protest, or not educated enough to be given this right, are the same people who will delay the development of democracy in Jordan and the rest of the Arab world. While they criticize others for not understanding what democracy is about, they themselves are hurting the cause of free speech.
Yes, maybe Jordanians can’t stand in a shawerma line, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to protest. Most people know that plain clothed men from the security apparatus often join these protests and encourage violence so that the rest of the country can read headlines the next day that portray the protesters as uncivilized hooligans. This isn’t a conspiracy theory. It’s the way Arab regimes function.
Thanks Nas for pointing out that the issue is about *freedom of speech and assembly*, not the issues being protested.

By: The Free Jordanian

The Free Jordanian — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:44:17 +0000

Who said we don’t have Arab Zionist ?

By: vegetable

vegetable — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:41:43 +0000

come on people, i appreciate the enthusiasm and everything , but honestly isn’t being “civilized” means the we should respect the “LAW”, i mean do something first and change the law or cancel it then protest as u wish, and any illegal gathering in any “civilized country” would be eventually stopped one way or another , and what’s with the normalization thing , we have a peace agreemnt with them already :), and if u want it 2 be a free country then it means u can choose what 2 buy, and i’m sure that everyone knows where everything is coming from , so stop the hypocrasy, and why would we ask the governement to stop importing these goods whatever they are , i’m sure some people don’t mind buying them, this is just another show for “al jazira” by people who want to decide for the country and who porbably have nothing better to do or maybe some farmers whose jobs have been affected ,add to that everyone knows that there are jewish goods here just stop buying it and they won’t be imported , and yes this is a “police” state, so wake up people , and it couldn’t be run in any other way, just think about it

By: Sufisticste

Sufisticste — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:34:50 +0000

A little too lase to be protesting the import of Israeli goods, no? Especially when the country they live in has a peace agreement with Israel (in other words, accepts the “legitimacy” of their existence). They should have protested hard against the establishment of an Israeli embassy in Jordan rather than mere cans of Israeli food.

By: Nas

Nas — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:55:57 +0000

@bambam: despite your disagreements with these organizations, how they function and what they choose to protest, it really doesn’t matter. you cannot, in all fairness, simply discard a person’s right to say something simply because you disagree with them, you don’t like them, and you wish their mother never gave birth to them. i see your point, but this is not how this works (or how it should work).

as for abiding by the law. i agree with you. any organization that chooses to break the law has chosen that path and has to deal with the consequences of it.

however, doesn’t this only draw our attention to ask the quintessential question: is this law a just and valid one in the first place?

which leads us to other questions like whether there a benefit to breaking that law?

does the law contradict our constitutional rights, as well as the rights and obligations guaranteed us by the state signing a bunch of international documents that say it will guarantee those rights?

i remember there being a country that banned the use of contraceptions at one point on religious grounds decades and decades ago, with that law still being continued, which leads one to the logical assumption that in a day and age where sexually-spread diseases are dangerous (e.g. HIV and AIDs), are that country’s citizens doing a disservice by breaking the law?

just reasons need to be behind laws and polices. we can’t simply abide by them because the people who drew them up say we must. if we had marshal law, would we be saying the same thing? we have laws the protect people who kill the female members of their family?

do the small incidents not help us call attention to the larger problem at hand? does it not enable us to question the law and viability?

that’s my point.

By: Hala Des

Hala Des — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:44:18 +0000

Oh please don’t tell me your shocked! please please!!! we are not Americans here, it doesn’t break my heart seeing people getting beaten for defending their ideologies.. It doesn’t break my heart seeing religious and irreligious slogans flying high for nothing!! as usual :), since I have always hated them!
What your post means to me, is just another reason why I’d rather live as an alien in Europe and still get discriminated even if I ever got my citizenship… than living here.

I do not really deny what this country had given me, it made me a fighter a struggler on all levels…

On the other hand, it’s shameful how people go out on the street doing what media is provoking them to do, and they don’t bother defending their least rights.. living please don’t get me wrong though, I’m not a conspiracy victim! no thank you

Finally Chaos is beautiful! and blood is too attempting for the world, I bet they could chose it over porn!

By: Eyad

Eyad — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:42:41 +0000

Jordan needs to set its priorities in terms of freedom of speech, assembly and expression. Khalas already…. let people say what they want (barring inciting violence) and ensure that the state and police protect that right.

I’m living abroad right now and a lot of my friends are studying international and human rights law and it’s getting tiring when every few weeks someone shoves a report or article in my face of rights abuses in Jordan (arrested poets, beaten protesters, prosecuted professors…. not to mention the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports etc….).

It’s especially annoying when you spent the night before telling people how great Jordan is and convincing them that they should visit!!!

By: A Jordanian Aus-Lander

A Jordanian Aus-Lander — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:20:36 +0000

I totally agree and totally disagree… no this is not an enigma but rather a realistic look into this and similar incidents that took place in Amman.

I think what Maha said in that we (Jordanians) cannot even form a line (queue) to buy a Shawerma sandwich in a civilised manner is 100% true but yet this does not give the authorities the right to kick and bat anyone and everyone simple because they wish to express an opinion (as long as they are respecting the law).

However, I do NOT condone nor endorse the spread of Israels products in Jordan… Iäm not silly but I do not want to be seen as supportive to Israeli farmers, I´d rather support Arab farmers everywhere.

By: bambam

bambam — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:20:24 +0000

look nas this argument ( to me) boils down to those point:
* is it their right to protest as individuals or a group yes, but without a permit they should suffer the consequences like everyone else and if they protest under their union the union should be penalized for breaking the law as well (when did that ever happen)
* if they so far as even allude in the slightest way for free speech or human rights then they have the right to protest on those grounds but they sententiously appose both unless it suites them. so when i see that done to them I’m hopeful they will learn something and change their opinion, but alas they are to trenched in their pride and self righteousness.
* This is not simply a case of free speech … free speech should be guaranteed on the personal level, the right to organized should be guaranteed on the personal level. once you move from the personal level there is always a law governing the limits on organizations and the limits they have to abide to to maintain their legal status… now since they are an association they should suffer the consequence and they never do! When it comes to protesting an issue there is always two paths to do it, one from within the system and one outside of the system… since they are legally recognized they choose the former and should abide by the rules and not cry foul when they come back to bite them.
For the record I hate how they function as a proxy for IAF and how a professional association is so entrenched in politics that it alienates some of the professionals because they have an opposing view. Have you ever asked why isn’t it the farmers or their union that are protesting the issue ?

By: Hamzeh N.

Hamzeh N. — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:16:16 +0000

Notice how in the beginning of the video, the security person in charge is addressing people with respect and repeatedly calling them “ya mo7taram” (fast forward to 1:20). He even instructs one of his officers to use that same language and tone (at 1:26).

But then, it all goes wrong when one idiot officer decides to use the stick to beat one of the demonstrators on the head and then his more idiotic friends get personally offended when the demonstrator calls that guy a “7aqeer.”

What else did that guy expect to be called? A hero?

By: tambi

tambi — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:10:06 +0000

From a point of making a statement. If the opposition do not start beating you and viciously attacking you. Then you are not heard.

Violence gives the illusion of sacrifice, which makes us show more solidarity. If they were not beaten a bit. We wouldn’t have heard abt the whole subject.

Its weird right? You have to take a beating to make a point.

p.s. Im not condoning the beating just explaining.